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>GDP and Are Musical Notes Subjective

>Roger, musical notes are fixed and well defined in relationship to each other–that is both objective and the reason why instruments can play together without being nonsensical noise. The mathematics of this has been studied from ancient times and is very well understood (indeed, musical notes are as well defined as anything can be and an excellent example of the sophistication required in the application of mathematics to real world phenomenon and how we refine our studies over time.) I integrated music theory and demonstrations of such into many of my math lessons for logarithms and trigonometry. You might as well argue that individual letters are subjective. Or that numbers are subjective. Or that the chemical properties of elements are subjective. Or that temperature is subjective. Or that the speed of light is subjective. Or that the charge of the electron is subjective. Or that the value of Pi is subjective.

Further, value judgments (we call them axioms in math and assumptions in science) do not in any way imply subjectivity. They are a necessary part of the reasoning process–this was proved independently a hundred years ago by Gödel and Turing and is the greatest single accomplishment in math from that time. Finally, that unscrupulous politicos, marketers, Fox news, and global businessmen abuse Economics by marketing fallacious self-serving l interpretations does not make it a pseudo science anymore than the invalidation of the vast majority of astronomical conclusions being overturned in my lifetime makes Astronomy a pseudo science. It is with the analysis, the reasonableness, the challenging, and the limiting of assumptions that we move our knowledge forward—in a highly objective way. If you wish to attack well reasoned conclusions developed over centuries by hard working thinkers you must get to and do it at the assumptions. Anything less is stating unqualified opinions.

This from A member of the Economists linked in discussion group.

http://www.linkedin.com/groupAnswers?viewQuestionAndAnswers=&discussionID=51227342&gid=3056216&commentID=39575567&trk=view_disc

My Posts from this discussion leading to the above statement.

I have very good friends in the Pakistani Diaspora and in Pakistan I trust that observations from the Diaspora of disfunctionalities in the Western system of so called free market Capitalism (which is in fact a bastardisation of its own dogma in any event) will get a good objective and democratic airing in the ancient sense of the word say an Athenian sense ( oh the irony?). Consider the ancient histories of divided and ultimately conquered civilisations/societies before submitting to an old guard in the West for who time is surely running out and who’s own greed will ultimately divide them and cause them to defeat themselves.
I am reading Michael Pearlmans “the invention of Capitalism” at the moment a very good read for all those open to Philosophical notions on Economic Dogma’s and it is a Dogma and only a Dogma that the west seeks to impose on those it can not subjugate by trickery.
Witness Iraq and Libya to see how absolutely hopeless the position of so called Western Democracies and their voters are to control the despots that run our governments through Global advertising budgets.
Good Luck and do consult history from all perspectives in your deliberations especially your own Cultural and Natural perspective. That is the disjoint I think that so much of Richard Wilkinsons work set out in the “Spirit Level” shows.

Hi Siraj,
Do not give up hope but do also remember that the strings that come attached to American Aid are not worth the price in most experiences ( they take much more than they give). Western capitalism thrives on a large disjoint between The corporations and its servants and the rest of us.
On education this man was a great thinker and doer in these matters.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulo_Freire
On Climate Change remember that the agenda is not as clear cut as the semiotics might suggest. The market is wide open for renewables and new energy and what is important to realise is that the industrial models of the west are adopting to a post industrial reality in which agriculture and sustainability are key. Beginning the learning processes building on many skills that still exist in Pakistan but are lost to the largely urbanised west give you a great head start. Remember real economics is about potential and that potential is in all of us and belongs to all of us and is as present in every individual in Pakistan as elsewhere self determination for the greater good of the people of Pakistan is much more important and much more sustainable than fitting in than a corrupt and broken 18th century economic construct that is no longer relevant.
We in the West do not even know what is best for ourselves as a Nation Pakistan must be confident in its own mind that it is as great as any other Nation and has a right to organise its own affairs in its own best interests the discussions and learning really should start at home and the solutions and aid will lie there too. In the new age of Aquarius we all have to understand that Humanity has still not realised its role or fulfilled its purpose in the larger scheme of things and that goes for all countries even the Land of the Brave and Home of the Free? Americans don’t get Irony?

demonisation of the Black Economy has its roots as far back as the initial development of theories of Primitive accumulation in early treatise on Political Economy. A black economy could be considered an economy of individuals who do not want to be subjected to wage labour but would prefer to provide for their own needs by subsistence from Common property. New ideas of sustainability challenge many of the tenets of Primitive Accumulation and the efficiency of markets to meet the requirements of society a triumph of mechanical analysis and equations over Common Sense if you will. I would posit that a strong Black Economy is in fact a great indicator of a healthy society where as strong GDP growth is actually counterproductive to the common Good. Also consider the artificiality of advertising and its ability to generate demand for the irrational and downright useless including moribund economic theories.

Go back to the beginning of Classical economy and read some more about Primitive Accumulation Look at the concepts of Home Provisioning and how that was an obstacle to early industrialisation. In a post industrial age now consider the Black economy and think in terms of self provisioning and a natural resistance of people who subsist in a largely rural economy to wage labour. Now consider your statement on the Black Market leading to reduced purchasing power and consider it in terms of efficient production in a sustainable sense are we talking about sustainable living or sustainable production to provide purchasing opportunity. One is a virtuous circle the other a Destructive one. The social aspects of self provisioning augmented by trade are very promising areas for new thought on sustainable systems going forward. Also have a re read of Thomas Paines’ “Common Sense” here’s a link.
http://www.ushistory.org/paine/commonsense/sense1.htm
There are many very important economic concepts in this Pamphlet from the time of the American Revolution I learned something new the other day there were actually two American revolutions and of course there was the Civil War also the great depression of the 1890’s is something I had been unaware of just another example of History including that of Economics being written by the victors.
Looking for a way forward in a time of great change doesn’t mean that History can teach us nothing Paines’ analysis of the Monarchy and and the difference between society and Government is very apt to some of the political problems out with, the perceived and your believed under performance of your economy.
To think sustain-ably consider who’s one allies are and where they should be headed for your best benefit. There is a Bubble in China developing probably in India as well they can sensibly avoid a bad outcome for their best benefit by rejecting Western economic orthodoxy’s and considering their own self interest down to the individual preferences of most individuals to provide for themselves. it is a fallacy of the Wealth Of Nations ( Smith) that big is beautiful and Capitalism remains valid ad infinitum that analysis is some peoples Belief But is not a truth.

Here comes the conventional view.\

James Vaughn • At present rate during the next three years there will be a period of simultaneous double digit interest rates and inflation. Does no one remember the Volker

MY attepmt at Irony.

Roger Lewis • Does anyone remember democracy and real free markets. Does anyone remember who won the 3.30 at Cheltenham and what were the Odds, does anyone remember the Gold standard. My point is that the concept of Inflation and GDP are purely subjective measures with very flawed client based motivations. The Lunatics have taken over the Asylum and the lunatics are the international Bankers.

And a link to someone that I really find a very thought provoking thinker on these matters.

Roger Lewis • Take a look at the other side of subjective / Objectve gaussian analysis and consider the extent to which procrustean science is misinforming attempts at sensible debate at every level of society.
http://golemxiv-credo.blogspot.com/2011/05/new-normal.html?showComment=1305695809460#c4214708069061821278

Here comes the Don’t be silly its all in the book it says here see.

James Vaughn • Roger, inflation and GDP are hardly subjective measures. We can question the methods of calculating and the consequences of changes. But they are quantitative measures which are fairly well defined. You might as well argue that musical notes are subjective.

SO of course I have to explain why Notes are choices and as such subjective as distinct from the laws of Harmony which of course also have preference aspects.

Roger Lewis • James Musical notes are subjective very much so they gain most of their meaning from context but they are subjective. Any statistical analysis has a value judgement and judgements are subjective where there are more than one potential outcome there are choices to be made. A very interesting concept in music and mathematics is plurality and these pluralities are also found in uncertainty with uncertainty and unpredictability comes belief and from there one moves again to the Subjective to say that GDP is hardly subjective is to completely misunderstand relativity statistical analysis or indeed the fundamental nature of the scientific method. Consider the laws of Thermodynamics there are subjective factors here too, for them to work you have to assume a finite vessel within which you predict your outcomes. The lesson here for GDP is that not only is GDP an inadequate and subjective measure it is also extremely open to subjective bias Economics is a very suspect and pseudo science and has been since its invention at least when it called itself Political Economy the unsuspecting public knew to be on their guard.

Here comes the Elementary Text Book again.

James Vaughn • Roger, musical notes are fixed and well defined in relationship to each other–that is both objective and the reason why instruments can play together without being nonsensical noise. The mathematics of this has been studied from ancient times and is very well understood (indeed, musical notes are as well defined as anything can be and an excellent example of the sophistication required in the application of mathematics to real world phenomenon and how we refine our studies over time.) I integrated music theory and demonstrations of such into many of my math lessons for logarithms and trigonometry. You might as well argue that individual letters are subjective. Or that numbers are subjective. Or that the chemical properties of elements are subjective. Or that temperature is subjective. Or that the speed of light is subjective. Or that the charge of the electron is subjective. Or that the value of Pi is subjective.

Further, value judgments (we call them axioms in math and assumptions in science) do not in any way imply subjectivity. They are a necessary part of the reasoning process–this was proved independently a hundred years ago by Gödel and Turing and is the greatest single accomplishment in math from that time. Finally, that unscrupulous politicos, marketers, Fox news, and global businessmen abuse Economics by marketing fallacious self-serving l interpretations does not make it a pseudo science anymore than the invalidation of the vast majority of astronomical conclusions being overturned in my lifetime makes Astronomy a pseudo science. It is with the analysis, the reasonableness, the challenging, and the limiting of assumptions that we move our knowledge forward—in a highly objective way. If you wish to attack well reasoned conclusions developed over centuries by hard working thinkers you must get to and do it at the assumptions. Anything less is stating unqualified opinions.

All interesting points of view and very nicely put but scratch below the surface and peel some more of the onion of knowledge maybe we are just talking at crossed purposes I am really not sure I am gateful to James for suggesting a reference to Godel and Turing I am less comfortable with the style of debate I p[refer discussion and a reasoned questioning approach the combative adverserail style for my way of thinking throws the baby out with the bath water. Its not that I don’t likea good old fashioned fight there is plenty of sport in that its just that Fighting doesn’t get to the heart of any matter discussion and free thinking and speaking does.

Oh My Answer.

Roger Lewis • Hi James,
I am attacking no one James and do not wish to. I realise that from your comments that order is important to how you like to rationalise things. What appears to be a problem with some of the contrasts you make is that they confuse how predicting things in a state of change from static things makes a very big difference as assumptions have to be made due to the unpredictability of the random nature of natural things. These matters are quite apart from the well documented shortcomings of GDP as a measure of an economies performance in a wider context of society.
This is not a class room and if you wanted to bother yourself with seriously considering the points that I have made in several posts in this discussion you will no doubt be able to find plenty of evidence tending to my view on GDP or justifing your own view. There is also lots of discussion regarding the subjective nature of variables adopted in predictive models a lot of effort is usually put into justifying measures assumed to cancel out or prevent compounding these biases. Take a look at Kant for starters regarding a prioiri and a posteriori knowledge.
As for musical notes A at 440hz still doesn’t get you home. The laws of Harmony are one thing but the intervals in the chord of nature are infinite and it is completely arbitrary the way in which it is divided. We use the Octave in the west this is not universal indeed the Germans have H instead of B and of course the incidentals are named for whether one is ascending or descending. Playing music offers we musicians a lot of options even when following strict conventions of Harmony the main rule of Jazz and blues is however that there are no rules music is about feelings and there is a really unpredictable thing another point on little old A there are several different flavours on my Guitar I can play it in 7 different places up to the 12th fret in 3 different octaves where I choose to play it is totally subjective no choice is right or wrong it is a matter of taste and convenience whether i choose to play the A chord with the root on any of those A notes or choose to use any inversion of the A chord is also a valid choice which again is purely dependant of the feel I want to go for.I what sense musical notes are anything other than subjective I do not know If one wishes to play with other musicians one harmonises with them this can be done by ear on frettless instruments this allows complete freedom to play an infinite number of notes the laws of harmony can be observed but predicting the music that is played would be impossible. as would naming the notes or the key. With skilled musicians used to playing by ear it would sound very nice.

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