Tom Harris Caroline is re-elected and already the Party’s management is bending over backwards to accommodate her every whim. Watch out Green Party staff members who have their own opinion – I predict sackings and gagging clauses coming up very soon.
Tom Harris Labour would only enter into a pact if it was guaranteed to destroy, or at very least, severely disadvantage the junior partner. Just look at what measures the PLP is prepared to go to in order to get its own way. They are careerist monsters, dead set on pushing through their own agenda at all costs. Sound familiar?!
Roger Lewis I agree with Tom Harris, the top downturn in the GP atmosphere is quite marked and the CO/ leadership bid was a coRONation. The presidential style of politics being promoted by the CO/ Leaders and their ´´Team´´ is straight out of Clinton Playbook 101, including terminology. `Progressive” is a very American term for watering down and neutering radicalism. Caroline, I am afraid to say, has caught westminsteritis and its contempt for Participative democracy. Chucka Umuna displayed this very clearly in the debate of the neverendum in the Commons second chamber, yesterday. ´´Troubling our constituents with referendums” he called it. Joseph Schumpeter described this as a competing elites model of democracy. ( quotes from RoyMadron,, Super Competent Democracies).‘Democracy is that institutional arrangement for arriving at political decisions in which individuals acquire the power to decide by means of a competitive struggle for the people’s vote’.” Joseph Schumpeter, Quoted from Roy Madron , Super Competent Democracies who in turn Cites. “Participation, and Democratic Theory” by Carole Pateman. Dr. Pateman says that, Schumpeter and his followers: … set the current Anglo-American political system as our democratic ideal (with) a ‘democratic theory’ that in many respects bears a strange resemblance to the anti-democratic arguments of the last (i.e. 19th) century. No longer is democratic theory centered on the participation of ‘the people’; in the contemporary theory of democracy it is the participation of the minority elite that is crucial and the non-participation of the apathetic, ordinary man lacking in the feelings of political efficacy, that is regarded as the main bulwark against instability.” Natalie was/is a great Democrat and good for the Green Party. I am skeptical of the co/Leadership which I feel Tom has quite rightly questioned , the Blairite Blue/Green turn it seems is accelerating, the piece in the Guardian advocating a turn to the right all add up to a pretty obvious pre-planned and probably Establishment endorsed , ‘make the Green Party ´ electable´ploy, plausible deniability built in of course. Ironically on the alliance front, the establishment will have been thinking about Jeremy Corbyn and a real left wing Labour party which it obviously abhors. If PR is on the cards which it would be in almost by default in a Federated post Brett Britain ,( Think federated union to preserve the union) getting the Green into the centre ground to the left of neoliberalism but also of it, would make sense for gaming Post Brexit federal Britain and its PR based parliament . It is clear that some form of federation will be required to accomodate Scottish autonomy within a re – modeled union as clearly another indie referendum would see and end of the Union ,as things currently stand. The neverendum debate yesterday was quite informative and Caroline was in the seconders chair, not a very democratic look for the new Blue/Green I feel. heres the full debate http://parliamentlive.tv/…/cb2f33f6-f9fe-463e-a6d5…https://youtu.be/3njSwTej4No...
Elise Benjamin Roger, I don’t know where to begin responding to your comments! By Blue/Green do you mean a leadership that are proud socialists (Jonathan is a member of Green Left)? No policy decisions are being made, this is a genuine attempt to open up debate on working cross-party (that’s including Plaid and SNP) to try to stop the Tories. There are clear red lines on the economy, energy production, welfare, and support for PR. It’s clear from the protest votes in the referendum and from our experience with on the street campaigning that voters want a more cooperative form of politics and we are the party taking a lead on this.
But the end doesn’t justify means. As Gandhi well understood, rather the means is the ends in the making.
Take the media. It’s not the media that controls this party; it’s what we do in spite of the media that counts. (Please re tweet.)”https://www.greenparty.org.uk/…/shahrar-ali-speech-to…/ The establishment as I have said above may well find a federal and pr based system of uk government necessary to preserve the union, a left wing GP will not be allowed and the preferred means of dealing with the GP nicely will be to encourage the right wing shift in return for PR. Similar to Labour and its rightward shift allowing the wasted years of Blairism . The Blue Greens will be a watered down controlled opposition to neo liberalism at best. This is an interesting game of chess the question for me is not whether the greens have been targeted for infiltration but how far that infiltration has already got?
Mike Shone Elise Benjamin there is extremely serious problem with this initiative not being evaluated and evaluations running contrary not being absorbed. Overlooking the crisis in the Labour Party, its tribalism and reactionary nature including under the overexcited Corbynista surge indicates that a PA is not workable for the next General Election where Labour will suffer a devastating defeat,
31% of the vote in national polls
A mid-term position 14 points.No opposition party has ever won from that position
Corbyn’s poll rating amongst Labour voters is awful
behind May and her crew
The kind of media management Sports Direct would reject as useless.
They are going to stall on 30% and May will cream them.
Sorry and all that but thems the facts.
But the end doesn’t justify means. As Gandhi well understood, rather the means is the ends in the making.
Take the media. It’s not the media that controls this party; it’s what we do in spite of the media that counts. (Please re tweet.)”https://www.greenparty.org.uk/…/shahrar-ali-speech-to…/ . We could all do a lot worse than to reflect on Shahar’s words, I look forward to his return to the leadership of the GP when democracy is restored.
Manipulation, like the conquest whose objectives it serves, attempts to anesthetize the people so they will not think. For if the people join to their presence in the historical process critical thinking about that process, the threat of their emergence materializes in revolution…One of the methods of manipulation is to inoculate individuals with the bourgeois appetite for personal success. This manipulation is sometimes carried out directly by the elites and sometimes indirectly, through populist leaders.”
― Paulo Freire, Pedagogy of the Oppressed
Mike Shone Elise Benjamin there is an extremely serious problem with this initiative not being evaluated and evaluations running contrary not being absorbed. Overlooking the crisis in the Labour Party, its tribalism and reactionary nature including under the overexcited Corbynista surge indicates that a PA is not workable for the next General Election where Labour will suffer a devastating defeat,
Roger Lewis Elise Benjamin Hi Elise, I am writing an article fully addressing the problems I see regarding the coRONation which is not a mandate when one considers that 32.55% of eligible voters supported the co leader bid, why the turnout is so low is probably explained by concerns expressed about the shot gun announcement of the co leader campaign in May. A low turnout was always going to be to the advantage of Caroline who fully utilised incumbents advantage as the only Green Party MP. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incumbent (see incumbency advantage section) On Brexit and PR , caroline made an excellent speech in the second chamber of the commons yesterday on the neverendum debate. On Johnathan’s left wing credentials, Owen Smith claims to be of the Left, lip service is not praxis. I will explain in more depth what I mean by this in my article , I will post it here in the next few days. On Brexit lets not forget a referendum on EU membership was actually promised in the GP 2015 manifesto, reform of the EU ( and its neo liberal constitution and practical policy positions) is supported by caroline, a member of DIEM 25) but I highlight that her speech in the commons conflates policy and parliamentary political will and electoral efficacy, the arguments will all be in my article and I will not summarise them here. The DIEM 25 vis the lexit position on EU membership are both valid positions, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pq72f81kkM4 . A rightward and top down drift of the greens is in the establishment’s agenda Shahrah in his conference speech makes the point that. ”There are many challenges ahead not just in party politics but in global politics.
Ian Woodall Labour need a dose of realism. Pehaps Corbyn getting them virtually wiped out will provide that. But it’s a heavy price.
Roger Lewis this is pure speculation and there is no credible evidence to suggest this is the case. Certainly, that is the establishment view and the media view. The electorate may have very different ideas if it can be fully engaged. Part of electoral reform should be about securing high turnout of all eligible voters, a measure by which the risible 37% turnout in the green leadership election fails by a long mark. The low turnout was assisted by the shotgun start of proceeding back in May.
Ian Woodall P.s. not being a git. But can we not have THAT fight amongst the nice people in the Green Party?
Roger Lewis Ian, what do you mean by one of them? polls have been discredited this past few year, It has not escaped all of our notice that they were wrong about 2015 and wrong about Brexit. It may well be that a Corbyn led Labour party is unelectable, the position Labour finds itself in though is certainly due to the ´Coup´attempt and all of the media narratives that have presciently saged each twist and turn, I find such prescience odd? perhaps that is because I am ´One of Them´? What are Corbyn’s greatest policy crimes? a stance against neoliberalism is certainly one of them, opposing the Austerity (There is no alternative ) narrative certainly another. The Green Party 2015 manifesto was well to the left of Labour certainly no more left/right than Corbyn’s political palette I would argue. Maybe its Corbyn’s stance on Trident, or Syrian bombing or EU aggression in Ukraine? Perhaps it is that Corbyn doesn’t believe all he reads in the newspapers. Shahrar Ali said this in his conference speech. ”There are many challenges ahead not just in party politics but in global politics.
I wasn’t sure I’d be able to face you today. Not out of some misplaced sense of wounded pride, but the sheer weight of disappointment; the feeling that I still had so much more to give as your deputy.
A more representative inclusive democracy. Democratic Control.
a political system that delivers government on the basis of just based upon just 24% of the eligible vote clearly does not give us that.
Second refernedum on the terms. The other side of the door?
Parliamentary scrutiny of the plan?
Max parliamentary scrutiny but a referendum on one of the 7 alternatives.
look at the debate of DIEM 25 or Lexit two schools of thought on how to reform EU.
Doing referendums differently ERS.
Top down misleading claims with impunity.
Egregious lies of leave
Freedom of Movement
Single market access
350million pound per week.
Peter Lilley intervention @ 5.21
50 free trade aggs 3 with freedom of movement and those from govt’s proposing to join.
The difference between Free trade and membership of single market.
Direction of the train,
Outside UK race to the bottom, tax haven.
Keeping what we have Gold standard, improving upon it?
Air water Wildlife, Habitats Directive birds directive preservation of environmental settlement. EU derived human and workers rights.
Guarantee eu nationals welcome to stay.
We want to know what you think the future of the Green party will hold, and indeed what you think it should be. Are you happy with the new leadership? What strengths do you think the party has in the current political landscape? What message would you have for non-Green voters?
Get in touch via the form below and we’ll use some of your views as part of our reporting.
Sweden place of residence.
Occupation. retired businessman
What makes you a Green Party supporter? If you are not a Green supporter, what would you like to see from the party?
Check out policy EC661 The Green Party believes that,…
How do you feel about the new leadership pairing? How can the green party secure success under Lucas and Bartley?
The use of incumbents advantage by Carline to anoint Bartley has not played well at grass roots level. This device and the shotgun start in the 1-month head start Caroline awarded their co-leader bid has led to complaints of a stitch up. The turnout was just 37% it would have been higher had the coronation not started its procession one month ahead of other candidates being able to declare. The Top-down style the leadership race and also progressive alliance proposals aggressively trailed by Lucas/Bartley also have engendered suspicion. This suspicion is also compounded by Johnathan’s privileged middle class and Tory past. His speech at the conference explaining this away it is fair to say has met with some skepticism. The lack of diversity in the leadership and in the candidates standing did not go unnoticed and the loss of Shahrar Ali to the leadership is nothing short of a tragedy.
What do you see as the Green party’s biggest failing in the past?
I agree with David Malone that the parties biggest failing in the past is ´´Kissing Whale’s failure to address the broad spectrum of political economy and the very middle class, ´´tories doing gardeners question time´´ made the party irrelevant, even alien to the general mass of working class voters. The new leadership team do nothing to address the too white, too middle class and altogether too bourgeoise face of the Green party.
If you are a Green Party supporter, what message do you have for someone considering voting Green?
Keep a close eye on the next manifesto, if it is watered down and moves to the centre ground to the right of whatever the ´´new ´´, Labour party position becomes when its civil war ceases, do not vote Green if Monetary reform, UBI and seeking reform of the EU disappear, also be very wary. It is it seems forgotten that the GP did have an EU referendum promise in its 2015 manifesto, I have been analysing very closely Caroline’s speech in the Commons debate yesterday.Listening to Brexit is a very important discipline for a Democrat, Caroline’s speech is a curate’s egg in this regard sadly.
What do you think the Green party needs to do to grow its membership/support?
The Green party is pretty poor when it comes to digital and online social media. It needs to walk the walk not just talk the talk of real electoral reform in Praxis and not just theory. Caroline said this yesterday in the neverendum debate. ‘A more representative inclusive democracy. Democratic Control.
@2.24mins ” a political system that delivers government on the basis of just based upon just 24% of the eligible vote, clearly does not give us that.´´
On Green Leadership.
41 690 active eligible voters
32.55% mandate?for Lucas/Bartley
Incumbents advantage.? fully employed for the co-leaders, through to the actual online ballot presentation.
The leadership election figures tell a similar story, was it voter suppression? probably not, certainly though it was contributory negligence on the part of Lucas/Bartley and the GP machinery.
Daniel Lee Why are you joining Labour Party members to mock our leadership just because your candidate didn’t win?
Roger Lewis Actually that isn´t the case at all Daniel,I think that it is an obvious question to make and in the electoral politics in 2020 or sooner we need to examine these questions. It is not just Johnathan that is not representative neither are Caroline and neither is Amelia, If David Malone or David Williams had won and there were two white middle class deputies I would level the same critisisim. Diversity and representation are key issues. My biggest regret is that Shahrar Ali Green Party is not in the leadership both he and David know that I would have preferred that Shahrar had run for the leadership and David as one of the deputies. Daniel Curtis is an irrelevance in my considerations Diversity was an issue for RON, the conduct of the election itself was institutionally biased to the incumbemncy of Caroline as the Green Party one trick pony MP (they will claim, not my view). Obviously these arguments must be met with pragmatic and openminded critique. Thats democracy as far as I am concerned Dan I do not do tribal I am afraid, and believe in speaking my mind. I have no idea what David Malones views are or those of Shahrah Ali, these are my own private views and I hold them sincerely and without any mallice found in any disappointment that David Malone did not achieve more votes, thats not a consideration what is, is are the GP electable? with this danger of a drift to the RIght and possibility of being or becoming a controlled opposition to neo – liberalism. This ´´Progressive Alliance ´´stich ” strikes me as a bit over-played , is rather pooh poohed by a lot of greens I have read and respect, like Clive Lord for instance. There is a wider game and it saddens me that the GP seems to suffer selective memory loss regarding its own history and policy stances.
Europe The Green Party recognises that the UK is part of Europe and that we cannot cut ourselves off from our geography or its political realities. Our message on Europe is positive, not based on fear and nostalgia. Much EU action has been progressive: safeguarding basic rights, peace and security achieved through mutual understanding, environmental protection, the spread of culture and ideas, and regulation of the financial system. And in other areas, such as welfare policy, open discussion and coordination are useful. However, we prioritise local self-reliance rather than the EU’s unsustainable economics of free trade and growth. We would not adopt the Euro, which cannot work properly without much deeper political integration, and this would be contrary to our policy of subsidiarity. We support the proposal to have an in–out referendum so that the British people can have their say. This is because much has changed since the UK joined the Common Market in 1974. Endless debate on membership is a diversion from more important matters, such as ending inequality and adapting our economy to One-Planet Living. So it’s yes to Europe, yes to reform of the EU but also yes to a referendum. This is the policy that led to the election of an additional Green MEP, Molly Scott Cato, in the South West last year.
“In a situation of manipulation, the Left is almost always tempted by a “quick return to power,” forgets the necessity of joining with the oppressed to forge an organisation, and strays into an impossible “dialogue” with the dominant elites. It ends by being manipulated by these elites, and not infrequently itself falls in an elitist game, which it calls “realism.”